Transcript

Aaron Nemoyten (00:00)
Hey, good morning. I’m Aaron Nemoyten and this is Make Games Drink Coffee, a podcast featuring conversations with game developers about their jobs, their hobbies, and whatever they’re passionate about. I hope everyone had a cozy holiday season and took some time to relax and reset. I certainly did. Now that the podcast is back for 2026, I’ll be switching to a bi-weekly release schedule so you can expect a new episode every other week instead of every week, for now at least. Anyway.

Today, I had a great conversation with veteran game designer and leadership consultant, Nat Lowe, about his time working on Skylanders, the need for better leadership training in the game industry, how to run better meetings, and why game developers need a seat at the table when big companies discuss the use of AI. This might be the most simultaneously topical and timeless conversation I’ve had on the podcast. So let’s do the intro music and get right to the good stuff.

Nat Loh (01:03)
My name is Nat Loh. I’m a game designer. I’ve been working for over 20 years. I do consulting these Biggest game I’ve worked on is the Skylanders franchise.

Aaron Nemoyten (01:11)
I wanted to ask about how you got your start in the industry Which is funny because we know each other because we both started at Toys for Bob at the same time and We sat across from each other But I think when you were hired you were a lot more qualified on paper than I was so

Can you just talk about like how you got your start in the industry and, and, know, how you decided this is what you wanted to do and, know, what’d you do for school and stuff like that.

Nat Loh (01:37)
Yeah, absolutely. totally correct. That’s you could say that’s how I got my start in the industry. I applied for Toys R’ Bob, got a job there. They were hiring four designers at the time and I believe only eight people applied. had a very, very GeoCities coded website back in the day. it kind of definitely when I was applying, it gave me those vibes like, this a real company? But prior to that,

I went to the Academy of Art where I thought I was going to be doing web design and they had this mishmash of game classes that were being taught there. So the funny story is as a kid I thought one goes to Japan to learn to make video games or to actually do it because I’m from the East Coast originally and I think anyone growing up on the West Coast would probably they like they know EA’s around the corner or you know, Blizzard or

All the studios in California, you just, you know they’re there. But coming from the East Coast, it was like, might as well go to Japan, and that has some obvious barriers to entry. But coming to California, learning all about it, and then also being presented with these classes, then it kind of opened up that opportunity of like, yeah, there’s a way forward with this type of career, so.

took some classes, met some people. so on paper, I had a bit of training from some industry people. when you look at it from an entry level job position, the delta between you and I was probably very minimal.

Aaron Nemoyten (03:18)
Fair enough, yeah.

I wanted to ask about, you know, in your sort of, you know, listing of things that you’ve done, you’ve got this big chunk at Toys for Bob that is a bunch of different Skylanders games and it’s all character gameplay design. And I’m curious what that means. I mean, I have an idea, obviously, but, you know, for the sake of everyone listening, what does that mean? And also, how do you do that job

in a way that interacts with all the other elements of the game in the best way possible.

Nat Loh (03:56)
Sure, so doing character gameplay design is… In video games we have a category we call the three C’s, which is combat characters and camera, usually. so I would do primarily the character part of that, which is doing the controls for the character.

And specifically in Skylanders, you’re working on specific character abilities, ability kits, ability sets, upgrades, all those little aspects, managing all the assets you’re going to need with coordinating with different departments. You’d work with animators to get the different animations for your abilities that you’re working on.

you’re working with the VFX team that gives you that gameplay juice to make your abilities feel really good. The sound team would come in, you’re working with all sorts of different departments just managing how you put together a character. then one step further, working with other designers, I would work closely with our combat designers and it’s always this conversation of like, okay, the enemies are there to…

essentially make the player feel good or make the character stand out in some way. And there are just those little tests that give you something to put your abilities against. You’ve invested a lot of time upgrading your character. Now those abilities will have a chance to sing and make the player feel the light. And then the last step is the boss, which is kind of like that final conflict of, right, we’re really going to push and challenge you in this.

this arena of combat.

Aaron Nemoyten (05:39)
Were there any times when you felt like you had a really good idea for something that was going to be like a fun interaction between the player and the enemies in theory and then in practice it didn’t work?

Nat Loh (05:56)
yeah, absolutely. I don’t know if I characterize it as fun, but there was one character called Prison Break. He’s a rock geode man with crystal hands and he shoots laser beams out of his hands. Originally, when I was designing this character, I was influenced by Star Control and was definitely trying to create a variety of gameplay styles. That was the working theory.

that I was going with. so his primary tack, before we sort of establish what the rules would be for all the Skylanders, was to like shoot beams kind of at an angle and then converge them like he’s clapping his hands in together to kind of give you this like powerful thing. it was meant to, you know, give you these aspects of timing and you know, you could also position yourself in a way to maybe maximize that sweep. So

Intent, variety, execution, not fun. You’re not. Your enemy’s right in front of you and you’re like, why do I have to wait to actually hit it? So eventually we gave that character to another designer, Jesse Moore, and he just made it go straightforward and all the people reviewing it were like, we’re happy with this. And I’m like, yeah, okay. Had to happen.

Aaron Nemoyten (07:15)
It’s interesting because now there’s a whole ton of games where the timing is the thing and the fact that like your attacks don’t happen instantaneously is part of the fun quote unquote. But those aren’t games for kids. So you were maybe you were ahead of your time.

Nat Loh (07:39)
Perhaps. I think there’s also the aspect of like, one of the big lessons learning doing characters is understanding what your player intent is and being able to read and translate that into the game. so with these, and so like I alluded that rules for Skylanders, the rules we established was your primary attack needs to be like the easy, easy to use attack. Like that’s the one you’re default brain spamming and not really thinking about.

And then, so we have one, it’s not always the primary attack, but we also have one that’s expected and one that’s unexpected. And by expected, usually you would get some form of affordances from the toy itself. A character like Chop Chop has a sword, his name is Chop Chop. You’re not surprised when he uses the

but then when he makes bone shards come out of the ground, you’re like, whoa, where did that come from?

Aaron Nemoyten (08:33)
So you sent me something that says, my current mission is to reduce unnecessary human suffering and knowledge loss in the games industry by improving how leaders think, decide, and lead their teams. Now, I am in a indie producer Discord server that is the right level of active where a lot of people kind of know each other and so we have pretty candid discussions. And I would say,

This is a category of task that everybody’s screaming about and wishes they could fix and doesn’t really know where to start because I think there’s a feeling of like disconnection between the people who are.

making the games and the people who are making these sort of high level decisions that affect staffing and funding and all kinds of things. how are you getting yourself into this mission?

Nat Loh (09:25)
Yeah, thanks for that question. So it has been a very challenging task to take on and I’m at the beginning of my journey. I would say that there are three areas you can approach this problem from. One through early career education. Like we tend to model the behavior that we see in front of us. So if someone’s behaving badly, we may go to our next job and say, well, this is how it’s done. And that’s just us saying, well, I don’t know any better.

So there’s early career education. think there’s also the late career. If you’re a senior designer, one of the stories that inspired this mission of mine was when I became a lead at Toys for Bob, I didn’t get any training. They sort of showed me a job description, but it was kind of thrown together. then within two months later down the road, they were like, we need to talk about.

about your performance, because the feedback I was getting was like, you’re not meeting expectations. And at the time, I was just like, what’s happening? OK, what can I do to fix this? Many years down the road, I was like, we’ve never talked about expectations. So it’s just like a very simple conversation that, like, any time you’re forming a new relationship, wherever it be personal or professional, understanding what those expectations are, and then being able to meet back and…

check in or realign, any of these things are like how you make it work. So that’s like an area to also address and like are there aspects of training that you can also provide people? And at the leadership level, right now my current thinking is it’s gonna be a little bit harder to affect someone who’s been in the industry for 30 years and they might just be set in their ways.

be through consultation if they’re open to it. a lot of times it’s difficult to really show and demonstrate the value. So my basic approach right now is in this year I’m going to be producing some YouTube videos. I’m just going to sort of figure it out as I go along. And we’ll see what works and what really sticks.

Aaron Nemoyten (11:47)
That sounds good. I like, I sort of feel the honesty of saying like, we need to focus on the current generation and the next generation instead of trying to fix things, you know, that are sort of already too long broken, so to speak. Not to call people broken, but you know, processes and habits and things like that.

You know, I know it’s possible for someone to have very different habits in terms of how they behave in a professional context that don’t necessarily reflect them, you know, as a person. Like it doesn’t make you a bad person if you’re not necessarily meeting expectations as a leader at a job, because it’s not really a natural thing for us to do. It’s something you have to learn and work on and sort of, you know, contort yourself to wrap around sometimes.

Nat Loh (12:36)
Yeah, absolutely. And I do want to emphasize how important it is that you said that like, we all have different masks that we wear and I want to make sure it’s on negative connotation. The simplest version I can talk about is if you talk to a baby or a dog, you’ve put on a different mask almost instantly and that’s natural. And being a leader isn’t always natural and you have to sort of figure out like how you wear that mask and you don’t always get

Aaron Nemoyten (12:54)
Yeah.

Nat Loh (13:06)
the support or mentorship or the tools or skills that you need to pull it off in. And it’s really harsh because frequently, stories you hear from CEOs and leaders a lot, or frequent leaders, they feel alone because they don’t feel like they have anyone they can talk to. These days, I think there are plenty of CEO discords you can get on and really have that voice, but.

You know, how, I’m not on one. I don’t know how productive their conversations are. Maybe it’s just trauma bonding.

Aaron Nemoyten (13:40)
So I think it’s interesting that you, you know, you’re using the term masking and there are different contexts in which people use that term. You know, I’ve heard it a lot for people who are neurodivergent.

who are masking in a lot of different contexts. There’s also the term code switching, which people would use if they’re sort of coming from a culture that they feel like won’t be as accepted if they sort of present themselves as they present at home or with their And I actually think there’s something to be said for,

people who feel like they have to mask or code switch more naturally when they go to work, regardless of, know, the, the context they’re going to work in, whether they’re a manager or not for getting them used to the idea that this is something you have to work towards actively. Whereas I think people that feel like they can sort of just take themselves to work as is, and are very comfortable with whatever their personality is and however they express themselves at work.

that can often be a whole different kind of problem because having to adjust when you didn’t before versus having to adjust just in a different way that you’re used to, like those are kind of different tasks.

Nat Loh (14:56)
that. It’s like not everyone feels that they need professionally. It’s like we work in the games industry, everything’s fun and games, but there are definitely times when

You know, you’re not really thinking about what you’re saying or like just, you know, one of the topics kind of jumping a little bit that I want to bring up is like, people hate meetings in general, but I think the real statement should be people hate bad meetings. I’m sure everyone’s had at least one meeting where they got out of it and they’re like, that was awesome. I feel so inspired. I’m going to go do a lot of great work.

Aaron Nemoyten (15:26)
Mm-hmm.

Nat Loh (15:35)
And if every meeting could be that good, people would say, love meetings. running a meeting is actually one of those other skills that no one teaches us. And we just model off of what we’ve seen before and try to make what works and don’t always get the feedback as to like, here are ways you can improve your meeting and make it a lot more interesting and at least bias towards exciting and ugh, waste of time.

Aaron Nemoyten (16:00)
So you mentioned, you know, maybe the people in the management discords are having, good conversations. I think a lot of the conversations happening between, you know, leadership and the game industry right now is about AI.

you sent me a note about that in your sort of, you know, podcast discussion questionnaire about the importance of having a seat at the table for regular developers when we’re deciding how to use AI.

You want to elaborate on that a little bit more?

Nat Loh (16:28)
Yeah, there are a lot of, I think, negative points that people point out with AI. I don’t want to enforce a narrative that AI is inevitable. I feel like there are going to be certain camps that will push it through. And it’s important to be involved in the conversation as much as possible so you can fight back against, say, like,

ethical slips, give them the benefit of doubt. if somebody is just blindly saying AI, AI, AI, look at all the money we can say, look at all the jobs we can cut. It’s like, if you’re unable to talk that person down, then you’re forced to accept the reality that they create. And so it’s about being educated. So, you know, in philosophy, they say, no, you’re

Aaron Nemoyten (17:17)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Nat Loh (17:28)
opponent’s argument better than they do. And so you want to be able to speak to their points in a way that can have an effect. Otherwise you’re just sort of like might as well just be on a forum yelling at people like, hey, is this, hey, is that? And it’s like, you’re not going to actually get any results through that. But again, I do want to prescribe this isn’t something I would say everyone needs to do. It’s just a matter of if you want to have a say in the conversation.

That’s just what works for me and I’m not gonna try to push that agenda on anyone else.

Aaron Nemoyten (18:40)
So you wrote that your favorite industry war story is really a peace story. Can you explain that?

Nat Loh (18:46)
Yeah, this was on Skylanders Giant and it was the day our alpha was due. It’s a very short story, it’s about 6 p.m. I’m playing the build to make sure everything’s going well and I get up and walk around the office and there are three people in the office at this time. that’s pretty much the story, it’s like…

Normally for those people who aren’t in game development, on the day of your alpha submission, it’s quite a wild night of trying to get everything fixed, everything’s moving, make sure the build’s going well, there’s usually some sort of fire happening that forces you to do another rebuild, and you’re at the office quite late just making sure everything’s working, provided you’re in a position to actually help.

move things along. If an artist goes home because their level’s been all cleared, by all means let them go home. I’m not advocating to force anyone to do it, but everyone’s trying to pitch in to make sure that you meet that milestone. And so in this case, it’s just one of those stories where I’m remembering being worried about the milestone and then getting up and just being like, everyone’s gone, okay. Maybe I need to chill out.

Aaron Nemoyten (20:08)
So I’m gonna get to this one thing you wrote to me, which is your unusual skill set is asking questions. Tell me about that.

Nat Loh (20:19)
Hmm. What do you think that means?

Aaron Nemoyten (20:22)
Hahaha!

Nat Loh (20:23)
Yes, all right, I’m trolling.

Aaron Nemoyten (20:25)
You got me.

Nat Loh (20:28)
So I think in many conversations, and I’m going to tie this back to leadership as well, we tend to want to jump in and be like, I have something to say. And especially on the leadership side of things, I think it’s more important to not say anything, to really just use questions, get clarity on things.

get participation from everyone and really if someone says something outrageous, don’t say that’s outrageous. Ask them like, why do you think that? Or how did you come to that, to that conclusion? Because when you lead with curiosity, you may find either there’s an underlying issue, like maybe in fact they have some sort of ethical like debate with how we’re using a certain thing.

You know, like, this is aggressive monetization and that’s the real issue and now you’ve uncovered that and you can have a productive conversation about that or at least sideboard it for another discussion or you discover like what they’re really not happy about and it’s really important to get people to commit to your ideas and if they don’t feel heard then it’s likely, unlikely for them to commit and if you can’t get people to commit, now you’re…

putting yourself in a position to force compliance. And compliance is a pretty heavy word, right? No one wants to get a visit from the compliance officer, whatever that might be. But it’s like, that’s not how you get the best out of your people, it’s not how you get the best out of your game. So that’s more of a philosophical reason why I think questions are so important. In terms of the superpower, those are your words, I just try to answer the question. wouldn’t.

because so far it’s calling a superpower. It’s more of just the mindset to lead with curiosity, ask questions, and resist that urge to be like, ooh, ooh, ooh, I have something cool to say, or I have something to contribute, like really getting the other person to open up and give you as much as they can. again, from a leadership point of view, if you can teach people to be open with their ideas, you’re gonna get more ideas from people and then…

You’re also just gonna, I think, foster an environment where people learn from those things. And if they say something that’s not, that is outrageous, you know, you can tell them how fascinating their perspective is and, you know, figure out where you meet. you know, that’s, those are the discussions where if you don’t have them, they, someone might get resentful, it might fester for a bit. And then down the road, they’ll just out of nowhere explode and be like, I’ve been saying this all along.

It’s not always the most constructive discussion to have. So there’s ways to get things moving along in a way that’s going to be way more productive and really foster environment for creativity, which we totally need in video games and businesses.

Aaron Nemoyten (23:41)
one of the things I find most interesting about that is the question of like, there’s the, the power dynamics and the sort of psychological aspect of like, if the boss always starts with their idea, then people will just feel obligated to just go with that. And if they have their own, that’s different, that contradicts that they may not even

You know, they may not even bother with that if they don’t have the kind of relationship with the boss where they know they can disagree comfortably. so I think it’s, it’s often really good, especially if, you know, a person in a leadership position thinks that they have an idea that’s probably going to work based on their experience, knowledge, whatever, know, even if they’re like the domain expert, it’s still good to give everyone else a chance to say something and, you know, know that they can give input.

I also want to mention, you know, one of my favorite tools, if I feel like a conversation is going in circles or there’s sort of like, there’s probably new territory that’s not being explored is to say like, Hey, I just thought of this thing. I think this is a really bad idea. but who knows? There might be something in it that like sparks something and then just give an idea that is ridiculous or impractical or technically unfeasible.

you know, or just doesn’t fit in some way, but just to give people that sort of mental permission to like break out of whatever zone they were in and go like, no, we can go wider than that. We can go bigger than that.

Nat Loh (25:10)
people talk about these days psychological safety, I think it’s important in creativity and creative and collaborative environments, but at the same time I do think the word gets thrown around a little

in a way that maybe the organizations isn’t practicing it. They may say, you know, we’re a collaborative environment, but then you might have a question about such a thing and the leaders like first to talk. It’s definitely one of those things I will advise people running meetings, start with your most junior person, work in reverse seniority. Simon Sinek has a book called Leaders Eat Last and just the basic principle of

take care of your team and they’ll take care of you. They’ll be committed to your cause. I think that kind of is reflected in that mindset.

Aaron Nemoyten (25:59)
What are you excited about right now? And it can be game industry or it can be some other thing.

Nat Loh (26:06)
Hmm So I guess I’m excited about geez when I say I guess I don’t sound so excited I talked about work doing making some YouTube videos That’s just something that I think I’ve been playing around the back of my mind and now I’m like, right Committed to do that. I’m working on a indie title with some ex co-workers That’s going pretty nicely Just doing a lot of game design for them and

Aaron Nemoyten (26:15)
You

Nat Loh (26:37)
I guess DICE is coming up in a month, so that’s always a fun time of year. I don’t know if you’ve ever been to DICE.

Aaron Nemoyten (26:44)
I but I mean, going to Vegas for a conference sounds like fun and I think I’ll do it someday when my kids are old enough that it’s not a big pain in the butt to leave them, leave them here with my wife.

Nat Loh (26:55)
What I will say for anyone who’s concerned but is like, it’s really expensive. Yes, this year and last year I went without buying a ticket. There’s a lot of networking opportunities. I call it like power networking. So you can find so many great peoples. You can find your way onto sort of Discord servers where people will organize things and

Aaron Nemoyten (27:10)
Mm-hmm.

Nat Loh (27:21)
you’ll find lots of opportunities to talk to people.

Aaron Nemoyten (27:24)
Yeah, that is how I handle GDC nowadays. When I first moved back to the Bay Area, I splurged a bunch of times and got myself GDC passes. And then after a while I started meeting more people and realizing that hanging out at Yerba Buena Park and then just going out for meals and meetups and stuff like that was far more fulfilling than walking from talk to talk. And so that’s generally what I do

So my last question is what are you playing right now?

Nat Loh (27:53)
so I’m not playing a lot of more than consuming a lot of like FromSoftware content right now. If you want to know the game I’m consistently playing right now, it’s called Dungeon Sweeper. It’s just an Itch.io game. It’s like Minesweeper, but with monsters.

Aaron Nemoyten (28:04)
Mmm, market research.

of that.

Yeah, yeah.

Nat Loh thank you so much for joining me for Make Games Drink Coffee.

Nat Loh (28:20)
Thank you so much for having me been a pleasure talking to you.